BCG Vaccination in Japan

Technical & specific medical articles covering many areas Kawasaki-related
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Momcat
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BCG Vaccination in Japan

Post by Momcat » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:53 pm


Momcat
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Re: BCG Vaccination in Japan

Post by Momcat » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:04 am

I've always thought vaccinations had something to do with our daughters KD and I have put this BCG information up before. I'm not quite as rabid about this theory as I used to be (and certainly not as some are here at the site lately), but I know that after our daughter had immunizations as a baby she had high fevers (for days and days) and rashes. Then when she was 5 years old, just before turning 6, she had a round of vaccinations that I didn't want her to get, yet her father didn't understand it and took her in when I didn't know about it. The rest is history---high fevers for weeks, KD for months (tons of treatments to get the fevers and CRPs down) and now the results of the KD are giant aneurysms that tend to keep expanding.

Anyway, I am wondering about this BCG vaccination that is common in Japan and where the injection site becomes re-inflamed on these kids...... is there anything in common --- any product in the BCG that is common in vaccinations here in the US?

It's always interested me that only kids seem to get KD. I wonder why and I also wonder why they never get it over and over if they get it once?

I'm also going to pose the question on another thread regarding kids that get KD that never have been vaccinated....

bremen
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Re: BCG Vaccination in Japan

Post by bremen » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:39 am

The re-activation (i.e. severe inflammation) of the BCG scar has been noted during KD up to 1.5 years after vaccination from what I have read. It is (live) vaccination against tuberculosis which is most likely not given in your area (if you are reading this) but given to 75% of the world population. I have spent a great deal of time researching it and the potential that it can interact with other organisms to cause KD and other autoimmune issues. Here is the best of my bookmarks.

The BCG vaccine (tuberculosis/TB/mycobacterium) seems to have anti-fungal macrophages (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... tid=348022). This makes it an excellent candidate for interacting with yeasts and fungi and being a part of a larger reaction (direct attack and killer-sensitive or programmatic cell death signalling).

BCG is used in the treatment of bladder cancer for unknown reasons surrounding soliciting an immune response or causing inflammation ( http://www.webmd.com/cancer/bladder-can ... der-cancer, http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/308/6932/801 ). If you suspect cancer can be caused by a long-term infection, this is the same as the previous bullet.

There is a paper around using the TB skin test as a tool to test for KD from 1997 - particularly for atypical http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2675483). I have not found any further research.

“Purified protein derivative anergy in Kawasaki disease” (http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=886290 ). An article indicating the strain/vaccine type in the TB vaccine may be responsible for the varying positive/negative KD diagnosis in the skin test (i.e. relates to last bullet). All KD patients in Italy reported positive for the TB skin test where 9 from Seattle showed negative.

There is a KD mouse model that uses BCG and an “atypical mycobacterium antigen” (i.e. another mycobacterium’s antigen) to model the inflammation found in KD (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 7/abstract).

There is a study upon using BCG as somewhat of a vaccine against systemic fungal infections in mice (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 4/abstract).

“BCG Vaccination and Prevention of Allergic Disease” (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c ... /109/2/346 ).

“Clinical and Immune Impact of Mycobacterium bovis BCG Vaccination Scarring” (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC130324/) .

“BCG Immunization at Birth and Atopic Diseases in a Homogeneous Population of Spanish Schoolchildren” (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c ... ent_1/S5-a ). Read the reviewer comments.

“Clinical course study Post B.C.G Vaccinaction” (http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xm ... n2/bcg.xml ). A look at lymphadenopathy (i.e. lymph node inflammation and disease in BCG).

“Lethal Tuberculosis in Interleukin-6-Deficient Mutant mice” (http://iai.asm.org/cgi/reprint/65/11/4843.pdf ). I think this is what a genetic IL-6 deficiency with TB does – which is not the same as what a BCG (the vaccine for TB) and IL-6 deficiency does… so… do genetic differences matter when getting a vaccine?

BCG vaccine was involved in causing an outbreak of BCG disease(“a type of whole-body bacterial infection” [can look identical to TB…?]) from 2000 to 2006 in Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCG_diseas ... the_2000's). It looks like it is used as a vaccination in 75% of the population - not including U.S., Canada, Australia, much of Europe and a few others. It is/was regularly given to high-risk (i.e. people with HIV) patients to prevent TB but was found to increase the incidence of BCG disease (which is 70% fatal) (http://www.hivandhepatitis.com/recent/2 ... 409_b.html and http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/87/ ... index.html ).

I have 2 other links similar to the original post noting changes in the BCG scar during KD:
- “An ulcerated lesion at the BCG vaccination site during the course of Kawasaki Disease.” (http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2801408)

- “Usefulness of BCG reactivation in Incomplete Kawasaki Disease: A Case Series.” (http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xm ... wasaki.xml)
Last edited by bremen on Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

liquidambar
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Re: BCG Vaccination in Japan

Post by liquidambar » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:40 pm

A child's immune system is different from an adults.
In the beginning a child immune system depends on the spleen and thymus.
As the child matures the immune system also matures and is shifted from the spleen and thymus to the bone marrow. The thymus even shrinks as we reach adulthood. Maybe the answer lays in that some where.
So inflammation responses as severe as Kawasaki's are not so acute - the older we get. Although this inflammation of the bloodvessels is still there even into adulthood, and as I have stated many times it has to do with a disruption of the mitochondria.

KCLP
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Re: BCG Vaccination in Japan

Post by KCLP » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:40 pm

http://wwwpediatricsupersite.com/view.aspx?rid=65428

Many of the KD kids have had "gut" issues pre and post KD. Dairy and wheat being the biggest offenders of course.

HSP's are found in all living organisms. Live vaccines given in the States included. Have any of our kids on this site had swelling and scabbing at their vaccine sites -I guess, yes. Yet, most likely none have been vaccinated for TB.

My opinion is that there should be a TB-like test to DX KD especially, for IKD cases - using a consistant strain. Why has this not already been initiated!

BCG can cause inflammation yet, it may also prevent allergic disease?

It seems the more I learn about KD the more questions I find in the need of answers. So many directions to go. Frustrating to see so much contradiction.

Great research. Thanks

KCLP
Last edited by KCLP on Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JannoW
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Re: BCG Vaccination in Japan

Post by JannoW » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:49 am

If you're living in Japan, I hope you are aware of the issue on vaccines. Health authorities in Japan have suspended the utilization of two vaccines for children. Health boards are reviewing medical records to be able to see if there is a connection between the vaccines and the infant fatalities. While these vaccines have only been offered in Japan for two years, the same vaccines have been accessible in Europe for 17 years.

Care4U
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Re: BCG Vaccination in Japan

Post by Care4U » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:08 pm

liquidambar wrote:A child's immune system is different from an adults.
In the beginning a child immune system depends on the spleen and thymus.
As the child matures the immune system also matures and is shifted from the spleen and thymus to the bone marrow. The thymus even shrinks as we reach adulthood. Maybe the answer lays in that some where.
So inflammation responses as severe as Kawasaki's are not so acute - the older we get. Although this inflammation of the bloodvessels is still there even into adulthood, and as I have stated many times it has to do with a disruption of the mitochondria.
Yeah. I know. It's an older post, but this is what I initially found on google and I found the conversation to be really interesting.

Liquidambar: Are these facts true? If so, where did you get this information from? I've never heard these facts before and I find them very interesting!!!

Anyway, my friend Angelina is a Kawasaki disease sufferer and she's received a number of vaccines in the past that haven't effected her immune system in any sort of negative manner....not to my knowledge anyway. Angie even takes supplements to boost her immune system. However, I don't know if she's been given that BCG vaccine. If these vaccinations are going to effect Kawasaki sufferers, then it's imperative that we get the word out to HER and everyone else. Thanks for sharing the article, momcat and thanks to everyone else for the useful information.

P.S. Speaking of supplements -- has anyone ever used colloidal supplements before?

liquidambar
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Re: BCG Vaccination in Japan

Post by liquidambar » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:52 am

Care4U
It is in all the medical books, and physiology text books, you can probably find it easy enough by googling here on the internet.
What they are finding in most of the autism patients - which is really just a pyschology dignosis out come of a brain injury and in my son's case he had a stroke (PDD-NOS a type of autism) they have high T cell counts in their bodies . T cell is one of the three types of lympocytes that go from the blood marrow, or spleen or thymus to the lymph nodes to fight what ever is trapped there. For some reason the T cell production is not being turned off.

T cell is called T because it is made from the thymus - thus T cell.

Austin26
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Re: BCG Vaccination in Japan

Post by Austin26 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:49 pm

I'm not a doctor but so far I'm inclined to avoid any further vaccination for my children ages 4(post KD) and 2(so far, healthy), and take my chances. Flu vaccine undecided. My daughter acquired KD after a day-long exposure in a place with a high concentration of floor cleaning products.

liquidambar
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Re: BCG Vaccination in Japan

Post by liquidambar » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:12 am

I have forgotten, but in more recent studied of the blood of kids with autism; One article appearing in Scientific Americana only a couple of years back says they found T cells but also lots more of B cells than normal. . B cells are made in the bone marrow. The hightest number of B cells was the IgM.

IgM is most often found in serum sickness.

There are five classes of B cells /five classes of antibodies (also called immunoglobulins): immunoglobulin A (IgA), immunoglobulin D (IgD), immunoglobulin E (IgE), immunoglobulin G (IgG), and immunoglobulin M (IgM). Each antibody is specific for a certain antigen.
The antibody binds to the surface of the antigen, triggering other immune system cells to destroy it. Once linked to the antigen, the B-cell sends a signal that attracts helper T-cells. The T-cell binds to the receptor on the B-cell, which stimulates the B-cell to produce many plasma cells. Plasma cell is an antibody/B cell that has a Germ's protein attached to it.

What I wonder is why B cells are so many at this time in a child's life when it should be mostly spleen and thymus?

liquidambar
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Re: BCG Vaccination in Japan

Post by liquidambar » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:12 pm

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... google.com

This one has pictures of a little sick kid with the BCG shot inflamed.

It is from Turkey.

Nancy
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Re: BCG Vaccination in Japan

Post by Nancy » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:15 pm

Please note:

The BCG vaccine is NOT normally given in the United States !

http://www.cdc.gov/tb/publications/fact ... on/BCG.htm

BCG is not generally recommended for use in the United States because of the low risk of infection with Mycobacterium tuberculosis, the variable effectiveness of the vaccine against adult pulmonary TB, and the vaccine’s potential interference with tuberculin skin test reactivity. The BCG vaccine should be considered only for very select persons who meet specific criteria and in consultation with a TB expert.

Nancy

liquidambar
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Re: BCG Vaccination in Japan

Post by liquidambar » Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:16 pm

Nancy that is very true, this vaccine is not given in the United States. I suppose it is of interest just because it involves Kawasakis and the link I gave just above does go into some things about heat shocked proteins (proteins damaged or refolded, what ever that means during a high fever). One such heat shocked protein was in the mitrochondria.

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